Balance Shooter [FD05]

Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's
FD01 ~ FD05
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:30 am
[Balance Shooter]

Image

When the ATK of a face-up monster you control would be decreased by a card effect, inflict damage to your opponent equal to the amount of ATK that would have been lost, instead.

Rulings:

  • This card's effect is Continuous.

Out of Date Rulings:


Chain Link 1: Raigeki
Chain Link 2: Light and Darkness Dragon
Chain Link 3: Balance Shooter

Last edited by Madolche Amber Lee on Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:47 am
Seems logical.

Better question:

What if the opponent activates Forbidden Lance (target: Light and Darkness Dragon) instead?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:10 pm
ChicoBDA wrote:Seems logical.

Better question:

What if the opponent activates Forbidden Lance (target: Light and Darkness Dragon) instead?


If "Forbidden Lance" is activated in place of "Raigeki", the chain will form as followed:

Chain Link 1: Forbidden Lance
Chain Link 2: Light and Darkness Dragon or Balance Shooter (the controller will decide which of these will be Chain Link 2)
Chain Link 3: Light and Darkness Dragon or Balance Shooter (whichever was not chosen as Chain Link 2)
Chain Link 4: Balance Shooter (only if Balance Shooter is Chain Link 2 and Light and Darkness Dragon is Chain Link 3. If not, the chain ends at Chain Link 3.)

If "Balance Shooter" is Chain Link 2 and "Light and Darkness Dragon" is Chain Link 3:


If "Light and Darkness Dragon" is Chain Link 2 and "Balance Shooter" is Chain Link 3:

[/color]

Out of Date
Last edited by Madolche Amber Lee on Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:26 pm
It'd be much easier to rule that Shooter doesn't chain and just happens. This allows us to ignore the mess that is LaDD, and there's also a precedent for this type of effect anyway (pretty recent too, in the form of Red-Eyes Flare Metal Dragon and its 500 burn damage at card resolution).

For this card though, old text or not, it should be implied that it doesn't add to the chain link, especially as ATK/DEF changes occur during resolution, and nothing can interrupt resolution except a win condition, or an effect such as REFMD which is a continuous trigger.

This makes sense, because there actually is no precedent for it to activate as the change hasn't even attempted to occur yet, and as such, you don't even know the change is actually even going to occur. Especially in the case of LADD, as it still activates anyway, even if its ATK/DEF can't decrease any further.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:36 am
Why is this thread necessary? The way it's worded, it's clearly a continuous effect. Does Dark Law banishing graveyard cards start a chain? According to this logic, it does.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:07 am
DysonSlinky wrote:It'd be much easier to rule that Shooter doesn't chain and just happens.


It would be simpler to rule it that way, yes. However Balance Shooter is listed as a Trigger effect, and that's the only reason I ruled it the way that I did.

DysonSlinky wrote:For this card though, old text or not, it should be implied that it doesn't add to the chain link, especially as ATK/DEF changes occur during resolution, and nothing can interrupt resolution except a win condition, or an effect such as REFMD which is a continuous trigger.

This makes sense, because there actually is no precedent for it to activate as the change hasn't even attempted to occur yet, and as such, you don't even know the change is actually even going to occur. Especially in the case of LADD, as it still activates anyway, even if its ATK/DEF can't decrease any further.


Precedents for an effect like this would be any Trigger effect that can chain to a card that is "attempting" to create the trigger event. There are numerous existing Trigger effects that work this way.

Stardust Dragon can chain to any effect that, in the event that the card were to resolve properly, would surely destroy a card on the field. Mechanics are aware if the destruction is absolute or not. With this in mind, the possibility of a card such as Balance Shooter existing, as a Trigger effect, is actually functional. If an effect is activated that, in the event that the card resolves properly, would decrease the ATK of a monster, Balance Shooter will be able to chain accordingly. Likewise, if there is an effect in which a decrease in ATK is uncertain, Balance Shooter will be unable to chain to it. The same logic can apply to Stardust Dragon.

With all of that being said; I'd be fine agreeing for Balance Shooter to become a Continuous effect, even if only for the sake of keeping complexity to a minimal.


sincerazero wrote:Why is this thread necessary? The way it's worded, it's clearly a continuous effect. Does Dark Law banishing graveyard cards start a chain? According to this logic, it does.

You cannot compare those two effects.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:24 am
Stardust Dragon also has a very key word in its text that allows it to work the way it does, "activate".

During either player's turn, when a card or effect is activated that would destroy a card(s) on the field.

As for the more appropriate text for the time period (5ds), here is its original: You can Tribute this card to negate the activation of a Spell Card, Trap Card, or Effect Monster's effect that destroys a card(s) on the field, and destroy that card.

Just food for thought, wouldn't be the first time the Wiki is wrong about the effect classification, and the card is also more comparable to Nurse Reficule than it is Stardust Dragon.
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Nurse_Refi ... Fallen_One
Any effect that would cause your opponent to gain Life Points instead inflicts the same amount of damage to your opponent.
And this is a continuous effect.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:59 am
自分フィールド上に存在するモンスター1体の攻撃力がカードの効果で数値が下がる場合にモンスターの攻撃力を変化させずに変化する数値分だけ相手プレイヤーにダメージを与える。


"られた時" is used on trigger effect - it literally means "In time of" in English. "In time X card is sent to graveyard, do Y." If you see "時," It's almost 90% a trigger effect.

This card doesn't use that. It doesn't even have any punctuation. The best you can find is in this text is: In the situation when - 場合に, which indicates something possible. It's not applicable to trigger effects, or at least, it is not anymore.

If you wanna butcher the English, the translation is SOMETHING along the lines of:

"In a situation when one of your monster's attack would change, that effect would be ignored/negated, and the your opponent's LP would be taken away in the same ammount."

The closest thing I can think of is D/D/D D'arc, which was ruled continuous in Japan, but it's text is also simple as f***. Both are one sentence clauses, though.

Stardust Dragon also uses 時.

My suggestion - fucking delete that card from the game. It's an incoherent mess, in both English and Japanese. Otherwise, it is more likely that this card is continuous.
You cannot compare those two effects.


Why not? It's card text also doesn't use "時"
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:01 am
DysonSlinky wrote:Stardust Dragon also has a very key word in its text that allows it to work the way it does, "activate".

During either player's turn, when a card or effect is activated that would destroy a card(s) on the field.


Silly reasoning. Absence of "activate" does not exclude the possibility of an effect being a Trigger/starting a Chain, especially before the invention of PSCT.

"When an effect is activated that would decrease the ATK of a monster you control, inflict damage to your opponent equal to the amount of ATK that would have been lost, instead."

It would still work the same way back then.

DysonSlinky wrote:Just food for thought, wouldn't be the first time the Wiki is wrong about the effect classification,


I considered that. The wiki effect listed "Trigger", and after viewing its card text I considered it a possibility with the comma and all, so I went with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:38 pm
Personally, this sounds like a continuous effect to me. Most of the "instead" sort of things, like D'arc mentioned above, or Revolution Trick Battle (which causes the highest ATK monster to be destroyed instead) are a continuous effect that just reverses the effect. I'd think this doesn't start a chain.
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