Transferring from Forum to Subreddit

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:20 pm
Do not make a subreddit. jesus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:33 pm
Awful lot of people here saying "Don't make a subreddit". But I don't see the same people also saying "What's your paypal account so I can pay for the new forum host?"

There are multiple yugioh related subreddits. From official ones to ones related to various yugioh news sites. Most games these days have a subreddit, if not run directly by the developer, then run by the community and frequented by the developers.

DuelingNetwork had a subreddit. YGOrg has a subreddit.

Subreddits are free. Forums cost money.

Reddit doesn't require an account to view posts, it requires one to make posts. But saying it's unreasonable to expect people to make 2 accounts is just dumb because players have to do the same thing with a forum. The only difference is, the forum isn't going to help pull in new players by being easily accessible to other related subreddits.

We gained quite a few interested players when someone made a comment about our game on the yugioh subreddit from players interested in using Link Monsters.

Whatever your opinions are of the "reddit community" is, those opinions don't really matter if you don't use reddit. "Reddit" is not a community. It's a series of subreddits with dedicated individual communities, most people don't ever see the vast majority of them unless they specifically go looking for a subreddit.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:09 pm
IceFire2050 wrote:Awful lot of people here saying "Don't make a subreddit". But I don't see the same people also saying "What's your paypal account so I can pay for the new forum host?"

There are multiple yugioh related subreddits. From official ones to ones related to various yugioh news sites. Most games these days have a subreddit, if not run directly by the developer, then run by the community and frequented by the developers.

DuelingNetwork had a subreddit. YGOrg has a subreddit.

Subreddits are free. Forums cost money.

Reddit doesn't require an account to view posts, it requires one to make posts. But saying it's unreasonable to expect people to make 2 accounts is just dumb because players have to do the same thing with a forum. The only difference is, the forum isn't going to help pull in new players by being easily accessible to other related subreddits.

We gained quite a few interested players when someone made a comment about our game on the yugioh subreddit from players interested in using Link Monsters.


For I think the first time in this game's history, we agree on something. DMG really is starting to think, it's amazing.

It's like watching a child grow up.

Whatever your opinions are of the "reddit community" is, those opinions don't really matter if you don't use reddit. "Reddit" is not a community. It's a series of subreddits with dedicated individual communities, most people don't ever see the vast majority of them unless they specifically go looking for a subreddit.


Just wanna throw out a good example of this because people don't seem to understand how Reddit works.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImGoingToHellForThis/

https://www.reddit.com/r/wholesomememes/

These are completely different communities. /r/wholesomememes is easily in my top 10 favorite subreddits. The community is great, and the posts are great. And then /r/imgoingtohellforthis is pretty toxic and cringy humor(haHAA 12 btw haHAA).

Totally different. But people don't understand this. It's like people complaining about 4chan for the same thing LOL

DMG, you need to learn to think before you speak.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:30 am
@Petty Vajuranda/ShepardJ
@IceFire2050
@anyone still on the fence about the temptation of switching to Reddit


I may not be a "redditor" but when OP posted this topic, I created a mock subreddit to get a feel of its controls and what you can/cannot do as an administrator. So, uh, I do know enough to input here.

With that, I can definitely say that there are no convincing arguments being made for the case to switch to Reddit. It seems to be an impulse because some of you like using it, and for others, the move fits into your narrative about DMG's community sucking.


I'll make my point of view clear: Forums are integral to have any sort of lasting, reliable structure. Everything gets drowned out and forgotten on Reddit.

The reason a forum beats out Subreddits is its purpose & utility as the game's backbone.

Redditors are active and there's an incredible base of IRL/online players. Sure. Making an account for one subreddit means easy jumping to another.
There have been no objections to those points.


But comment threads are way more fragmented and ephemeral vs forum threads.


Comment threads are meant to be read exactly one time, probably right around the time of creation, and probably not in their entirety. A good forum thread is meant to be read start to finish, in order, taking in everything.


Putting aside the pros and cons of reddit vs phpBB, the game needs its own website. It's a matter of branding, if nothing else.


Even after stating that board administrators control user registration parameters (CAPTCHA, reg req's, password complexities, name boundaries, etc.), ShepardJ still seems to think phpBB requires specific emails to register.


We are a very small community unlike most indie games on Reddit. We have small cliques and narrow focus...


Some people talk about the main "forum" based on Reddit being convenient, and I get that. But the preference should come a distant 2nd to our ability to communicate with each other around a limited outside influence. Dynamics like this reduce player retention.


And the cons don't stop with matters of communication.
Great ideas like a webclient get no consideration here, but Reddit lacks advantages of a VPS database such as creating custom CSS pages.


You lack top-down control. Allowing people to post tournament registrations/bug reports/ban appeals/suggestions/card corrections etc. via Guest accounts are some examples of where the two mediums diverge.


Almost everything you can do on a subreddit is doable on a forum, and THEN SOME. And yes, you can use Up/Down votes, reputation systems, etc. with phpBB. :l


Get forums.


P.S. IceFire2050: I did not say that users have to register to view posts on Reddit. I stated Reddit does not allow guest posting.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 pm
Cardsy wrote:@Petty Vajuranda/ShepardJ
@IceFire2050
@anyone still on the fence about the temptation of switching to Reddit


Again with the insults. Please, control yourself. I told you to come back with some actual evidence, and you came back with nothing. It's kinda disappointing, really. Reminds me of the days of arguing with Wolfgang. I imagine you'll try to prove probability doesn't exist next and we'll have to get out the six person Clifford icon.

I may not be a "redditor" but when OP posted this topic, I created a mock subreddit to get a feel of its controls and what you can/cannot do as an administrator. So, uh, I do know enough to input here.

With that, I can definitely say that there are no convincing arguments being made for the case to switch to Reddit. It seems to be an impulse because some of you like using it, and for others, the move fits into your narrative about DMG's community sucking.


It would be the same shitty community moving to a different place. It has nothing to do with the DMG community being shit. Also, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Reddit is super customizable.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ooer/

A funny example of some stuff you can do to subreddits. You probably took one look, figured out you didn't know what you were doing, and then said "you can do nothing with this" and took that as a fact.

Hell, the subreddit Ice already threw up has a custom look to it.


I'll make my point of view clear: Forums are integral to have any sort of lasting, reliable structure. Everything gets drowned out and forgotten on Reddit.


Everything is archived on Reddit. You can pull up posts from years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegend ... _released/
Post from 2 years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegend ... ing_house/
Post from 4 years ago.

BUT EVERYTHING GETS LOST, VAJ

EVERYTHING

The reason a forum beats out Subreddits is its purpose & utility as the game's backbone.

Redditors are active and there's an incredible base of IRL/online players. Sure. Making an account for one subreddit means easy jumping to another.
There have been no objections to those points.


What the f*** are you talking about. The game's backbone? The f*** is that supposed to mean. Like, that makes no sense. Explain how a forum somehow makes a better backbone than a subreddit.


But comment threads are way more fragmented and ephemeral vs forum threads.

Comment threads are meant to be read exactly one time, probably right around the time of creation, and probably not in their entirety. A good forum thread is meant to be read start to finish, in order, taking in everything.


Uh, a comment thread means you get to reply to one another. You can hold multiple discussions in the same post. That's something Reddit has over a forum. Let's look at an example:

If I post a thread asking the community what they think of my Dragunity deck, the OP would have the deck and my thoughts in it.

And then someone can post a comment with their thoughts on the deck, and someone can post a separate post on THEIR thoughts on the deck. And then I reply to person A and B separately, in which they each can reply to me separately.

Now, if this was done in a forum it would my post, person A's post, then person B's post, then a post addressing them both from me, then person B replying, then person A. That is fucking jumbled as all hell and makes no sense. You would never want to go from post to post reading in that way, because you're reading two different conversations at the same time.

There is nothing fragmented about it. In fact, a forum is more fragmented. If you want something like what we have on the forum, you would reply to one comment thread the whole time. And then when someone wants to separate themselves from that comment thread and post something relevant to the topic, they can post a separate comment.

Putting aside the pros and cons of reddit vs phpBB, the game needs its own website. It's a matter of branding, if nothing else.


No, actually, we don't. The website doesn't matter if it's just a forum that no one will ever find. It's easier to just say "subscribe to the subreddit for more content" instead of "come check out this shitty website every day". If we needed an actual website, it would be more than just a forum.


Even after stating that board administrators control user registration parameters (CAPTCHA, reg req's, password complexities, name boundaries, etc.), ShepardJ still seems to think phpBB requires specific emails to register.

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Shut the f*** up. Seriously, you don't know enough to be having this argument with me. You're just spouting nonsense hoping something will stick and make you look like the hero that no one wants.

We are a very small community unlike most indie games on Reddit. We have small cliques and narrow focus...


Some people talk about the main "forum" based on Reddit being convenient, and I get that. But the preference should come a distant 2nd to our ability to communicate with each other around a limited outside influence. Dynamics like this reduce player retention.


What outside influence. The only people who would EVER care enough to post in the subreddit are people interested in the game. No one really cares enough to post in subreddits that they don't give a shit about. I browse the Vanguard subreddit. That has a pretty small community. And not once has anyone ever wandered in that didn't already play Vanguard or were interested in learning. No one gives a shit. Reddit is a place to subscribe to content you care about and to share a community with those people.

I don't think you truly realize how big the Reddit community is. Every single big game has more action on the subreddit than the actual game's forums themselves.

And the cons don't stop with matters of communication.
Great ideas like a webclient get no consideration here, but Reddit lacks advantages of a VPS database such as creating custom CSS pages.


I'll be honest, I don't know too much about web design. However I do know this, this isn't an argument against moving to Reddit. This is instead an argument for getting another webpage in the future. This isn't enough to stop the game from moving to a subreddit, and then paying for a webpage in the future.



You lack top-down control. Allowing people to post tournament registrations/bug reports/ban appeals/suggestions/card corrections etc. via Guest accounts are some examples of where the two mediums diverge.


It's not hard to create a Reddit account, and I imagine a lot of people have one already. Also, you're totally wrong. You CANNOT post as a guest in the Star Tournament topics, you CANNOT post Bug Reports as a guest, you CANNOT even see the ban appeal section as a guest, you CANNOT post a suggestion as a guest, and you CANNOT post card corrections. Please stop just spouting random bullshit.

Almost everything you can do on a subreddit is doable on a forum, and THEN SOME. And yes, you can use Up/Down votes, reputation systems, etc. with phpBB. :l


And everything doable on forums you can do on Reddit. And the subreddit is free. And more accessible to newcomers.

But I know in the past DMG has been against expanding because you guys like your close knit community and are pretty toxic when it comes to newcomers. So maybe you don't want to expand the dying game.


P.S. IceFire2050: I did not say that users have to register to view posts on Reddit. I stated Reddit does not allow guest posting.

You can't even do that. ZULUL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:58 pm
Lel you forgot that you can't even read fanfiction as a guest here
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:09 pm
Wow, this subject sure did turn into like 2 and a half circlejerks.

Though my presence is petering out here, I suppose I can offer my 2 cents (which is more money than I can spend right now LOL)

I believe the reason Icefire is entertaining the idea of a subreddit is specifically because only the clinically insane (like myself, obviously) want to spend the money and effort, mostly the money tbh, required to keep a website with the forums going. There is no favoritism-based impulse or convoluted narrative involved, it is simply because it is a free, easy alternative.

A lot of the points some people in here made are aesthetic in nature, or otherwise difficult to quantify, and as such I'm not sure what to make of them.

With a situation such as this, where the option of change is a very real possibility, mapping out pros, cons, and filtering out flak is important.
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Pros for the subreddit change that have been mentioned in this thread
  • lol it's free:
    If you need explanation for this one, I'm confident you are insane and should seek professional help if you have not done so already.
  • Registration is easy:
    Over the course of this game's history, I can confirm it is a very common complaint to hear during Star Tournaments that people have issues registering to the forums. The forums simply do not work for specific users, and that's partially due to some restrictions which were put in place long ago specifically to stop people from doing things like spamming and ban evading, but otherwise it's actually just an inherent problem with the forums that would force a complete start-over to address. Even in their respective base forms, Reddit registration is quicker, easier, and more reliable than that of a phpBB forum.
    This forced an allowance to be made which no online medium ever wants to make: opening guest posting. Contrary to what some people may think, opening guest posting in any way constitutes a very big problem. Why? Because guest posting opens a hole for spammers and other undesirable people to do what they do, uninhibited. Seems counterproductive, doesn't it?
    DMG historically makes light of bans as a whole, often using them as jokes, but imagine a situation (which did happen once upon a time, though not during mine) where somebody, or some bot, gets on the forums and, because they can just freely post, posts a whole bunch of child porn or advertisements and shit. How does this make DMG as a whole look? Not good. Now whoever are the moderators/admins have the annoying task on their hands of cleaning that shit up, and especially if bots are in the picture, it can be possible for that to become overwhelming for everyone involved, including the playerbase.
  • Reddit is a well known platform, backed by a legitimate company that knows what they're doing, and has a stable, established framework:
    This is not necessarily super-relevant, but it puts to rest any concerns regarding stability or upkeep. If something is caught not working, it'll usually be fixed by the Reddit core in short order with little need for anybody in DMG to get involved. This frees up the powers that be to simply focus on moderation past the point of initial setup, which is great because as we all know, people are lazy.
  • By virtue of simply existing on Reddit, it brings more visibility to the fact that DMG even exists:
    There are a shitton of people out there who play Yugioh, but have no idea what DMG is, because DMG has never been particularly big on advertising, since that sounds like work and who wants to work? Having a subreddit, in its own little indirect way, passively gets our name out there, whereas the forums don't.
  • Reddit allows content to be upvoted or downvoted
    At base, yes, phpBB doesn't have this, however, I'm lead to believe this is a non-issue simply because I have brought up the idea of installing a relatively simple mod which allows this functionality in the past, and nobody wanted it or cared for it.
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Now for the cons which have been brought up, and this is where shit gets real, because cons are more open to debate than pros
  • Reddit isn't designed around game communities, it's designed around topical/discussion communities
    This is a bit on the nonsensical side, as Reddit has proven to be just as effective, if not better, at allowing gaming communities to connect both internally and externally with their playerbase or playerbase-to-be than their respective forums are, of which there is more proof than can be reasonably reproduced.
  • Some users would have to sign up for new accounts.
    Yes, this is true, as Blade brought up, there may be some people who don't have Reddit accounts. This is unavoidable with any change in system, but thankfully, as I mentioned in the pros, registration to Reddit is much more stable and much less restrictive than the forums are. For the record, the email gating was something implemented before my time, but everything else regarding the forum registration is all core phpBB. Very little of that is within our control. The forum registration just legitimately don't work for some people, even those who are using non-filtered email addresses.
  • A change of system results in a decline of traffic
    This is not really a con, but rather attempted redirection of fault. The people who actually are a part of the community will find their way, and it's also a part of the job of the staff in-game to ensure that everyone knows that the change of system is made. Any loss of traffic should be solely attributed to people who are probably half-way out the door of quitting the game, or were never in it to begin with, and any losses outside of that are not the fault of the change, but of the people facilitating it.
  • We'd lose all of our old posts/records
    This isn't even a thing. The forums are easily offloaded to a free forums provider.
    A little history lesson for the less initiated -- when this game first started out, the forums used IPB (Invision Power Board) as its codebase, not phpBB. At some point, somebody decided to make that change, and that old IPB board was decommissioned and offloaded somewhere else that requires no upkeep and just exists for the records. This would be no different.
  • Star Tournaments would become more burdensome due to no guest posting ability
    Perhaps one could argue this, but people generally only guestpost when they have no choice, because they had problems signing up to the forums. Most people don't choose the guestpost life, the guestpost life chose them.

    EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that this actually isn't even possible on the current forums, so I'm not sure why it came up as a discussion point.
    There are a few people which this does not apply to, but opening the boards to spambots and such is not an acceptable or even tradeoff for this functionality. Plus, people already harass TM's and Admins in-game to "sign up for them", which is fucking nonsense to begin with and shouldn't be a part of their responsibilities, but was made so anyway due to the forums being flawed as they are.
  • Customize-ability is restricted
    This is mostly nonsense -- it would have actually been easier for me to implement the Revenge of Meta-Knight credit roll on a subreddit than it was here. The first time I did it, I somehow broke the entire goddamn Admin Control Panel and PM system. I still don't understand why that happened. Also the music isn't silly go f*** yourself lul
    Most things are possible within the realm of Reddit. There are shitpost boards like /r/ooer or /r/shurima that base themselves on this kind of fuckery. It's not terribly difficult or cumbersome as long as one knows what one is doing.
  • Branding
    This is something which runs only slightly different to, but still parallel to community exposure, which is already a pro for the change.
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There's also one more thing which falls into a gray area between pro and con, because it is a change, rather than a linear upgrade or downgrade:
  • Structure, Quality-of-Life, and the aesthetic between Reddit and the forums are drastically different
    It is true that threads on Reddit are structured differently than those on forums, due to Reddit following a tree-leaf format when it comes to replying to a particular person, whereas the forums just have the one topic and a whole bunch of replies to it which may or may not be relevant to the OP, but rather to something that was brought up during the discussion. It is true that some people may not want to read through an entire comment thread because Reddit sort of truncates them once they go too far, requiring another click by the user to see them, but conversely, the forums do the same thing, except without even having the choice of reliably skipping it. Sure, I could skip pages, but that means indiscriminately skipping forward 10 posts at a time, rather than just avoiding discussion about a particular sub-topic that the reader doesn't care about.
    Consider a definitely hypothetical scenario in which Celtic is banned from Star Tournaments again for backseating. On these forums, this leads to a 6 page thread filled of posts that are some parts legitimate discussion about loopholes in the rules, some parts blame shifting, other parts memeing, and the list can go on. On a subreddit, one can reply directly to Chico poorly pretending to be Celtic's lawyer, while another can reply to Ventfags memeing. We sort-of emulate that flexibility on the forums via the use of the Quote function, but it is very cumbersome, limited, and doesn't even serve the full purpose, as all it says is "this is a response to that". Plus, quotes can be abused, as seen on the first page of my explanation thread on why I'm leaving.
    Additionally, there is validity behind the point that, with a subreddit, there's no separation of content as there is on the forums.
    As an example, a regular user who plays the game may frequent only Kaiba Corp, Official Game Tournaments, and maybe Domino High/Server Issues/Hosting for juicy drama shit; while another user may also frequent Suggestions, Bug Reports, Card/Deck Shop, Fanfiction, or Industrial Illusions. With reddit, this does not exist, and it's all just together on the front page. Though threads can be given "category tags" by moderators, this is a workaround that requires manual input, so it's a bit of a cumbersome subject.
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In short, the change does bring about some legitimate arguments for one over the other, but ultimately it's probably just gonna come down to whether or not somebody is actually gonna pay up, anyway. Ice pretty much is confirming that he doesn't want to, so either somebody such as myself, with the right mixture of insanity and trustworthiness comes up to take the torch, or the subreddit happens because there's no other choice.

Also, for the record, had I not come in, it was already UD's plan to make a subreddit in response to pdjkeelan dropping out, same as I am now. I just bought the forums some extra time.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:03 am
Subreddit is the best plan we've got. Even if we did have a new volunteer forum host, it's time to get out of the 2000s.

That said I have no idea how to customize a subreddit, and no intention of moderating one.

Also a pro for the list: I can downvote shitty ban appeals on a subreddit, and so can everyone else. But we're at the point where there's hardly any banning problems anymore, so it's all a moot point.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:25 pm
I don't know how to customize it but I'm sure there's a guide out there. I don't mind moderating it but I'll have to make an account because duh.

Tournaments will be the only annoying part to do via Reddit. I don't care much about the other issues.

However I do like the forum set up we've had since almost forever so it sucks to see it die. Not like I can pay for it though.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:40 pm
Machturbo wrote:Tournaments will be the only annoying part to do via Reddit. I don't care much about the other issues.

How would it be any different from our current way of doing it? You post a topic on the subreddit, and then everyone replies to the thread.

???
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