Article: Utility Points

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:06 pm
I think Silf touched on a good point there, LPs can be a UP. If your lps are too low for you to play a card, then that card should lose it's UP. Being under 1000 keeps you from using Wall of Revealing light, and 800 or lower would prevent Brain Control. If you set your opponent up where they can't do something due to low LPs, then you gain a UP. Like Chain Energy would keep your opponent from summoning if they had 500 lps left.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:51 pm
well, i think the current UP system takes care of the situations you guys have mentioned.

explicitly,

- if that plaguespreader got ss'd to the field that would be +1 UP.

- in order to lose any lp, there must be a cause. if a burn card was activated, +1 UP.
if a monster atk'd, it had to be summoned first. hence, + 1UP. if you stopped the atk
with a trap, you get +1. if you didn't, you lose LP.

hence, i think these scenarios are indirectly covered. also, i would not like to arbitrarily
decide how much lp to equate a UP to. i don't really see any direct correlation with lp in this system, but...

perhaps you could propose another system?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:10 pm
What you've given a name and mechanics to is duelist inuition, common sense, and intelligence.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:03 am
thesonicvision wrote:well, i think the current UP system takes care of the situations you guys have mentioned.

explicitly,

- if that plaguespreader got ss'd to the field that would be +1 UP.

- in order to lose any lp, there must be a cause. if a burn card was activated, +1 UP.
if a monster atk'd, it had to be summoned first. hence, + 1UP. if you stopped the atk
with a trap, you get +1. if you didn't, you lose LP.

hence, i think these scenarios are indirectly covered. also, i would not like to arbitrarily
decide how much lp to equate a UP to. i don't really see any direct correlation with lp in this system, but...

perhaps you could propose another system?

I don't think the scenario you provided there showed a proper grasp on what I was talking about. The only time losing LPs would cause a change in UP, is when the LP value prevents or allows you to play cards, or perform maneuvers. For example: If my lifepoints are 600, I can't play cards like premature burial. That's -1 Up. If my LPs are below 500, I can't use or set off any card that would cause me to lose that 500 Lps. Things like Burn___ (that continuous Trap that deal 500 damage when a fire is destroyed) would prevent me from attacking my opponent's fire monster if it would go to the grave. -1 UP. It would also prevent me from destroying it with other cards, let's say the smashing ground in my hand. -1. (2 total)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:32 am
I don't think the scenario you provided there showed a proper grasp on what I was talking about. The only time losing LPs would cause a change in UP, is when the LP value prevents or allows you to play cards, or perform maneuvers. For example: If my lifepoints are 600, I can't play cards like premature burial. That's -1 Up. If my LPs are below 500, I can't use or set off any card that would cause me to lose that 500 Lps. Things like Burn___ (that continuous Trap that deal 500 damage when a fire is destroyed) would prevent me from attacking my opponent's fire monster if it would go to the grave. -1 UP. It would also prevent me from destroying it with other cards, let's say the smashing ground in my hand. -1. (2 total)


^ there are three situations:
1- you gain UP
2- you lose UP
3- your UP total remains unchanged

if your lp is 800, so you can't play brain control, you should not lose UP. remember, it's a running
total. suppose your opponent has a +3 total UP advantage. next turn you draw brain control. his advantage
has NOT INCREASED because you drew brain control and cannot activate it; his advantage is the same
as it was the turn before. instinctively this makes sense, and the goal of UP is to reflect this
intuitive feeling with a mathematical system. hence, +/-0 UP. some effect might occur that increases your LP. now, if your brain control is negated, then certainly you should lose 1 UP, since you've "lost" the use of
a card.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:37 am
I disagree, since you basically just "lost" your draw, or use of a card. It's the same thing as if the card were negated, except it's kinda worse in a sense since your opponent doesn't waste any cards to negate it. If Horus was on the field and you wasted a spell card after he was summoned, wouldn't you consider that a -1 UP? The only way I could see if it wasn't a -1 would be if you considered discarding the "useless" card for an effect or a cost, but it's full potential, or original purpose, can't be realized.

TL;dr: If your opponent draws a card you'd call it a +1 UP, but if you draw a card that can't be used, as it was meant to, should it still be a +1 UP?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:36 am
Tristam wrote:I disagree, since you basically just "lost" your draw, or use of a card. It's the same thing as if the card were negated, except it's kinda worse in a sense since your opponent doesn't waste any cards to negate it.


^ dude. i appreciate your enthusiasm, but what you're describing is something different altogether.
that's fine, by the way. your system may achieve a better result. however, the point of my system is to be
simple and clear. what i've just quoted you saying is certainly very principled, but not mathematically
clear.

let's look at your horus scenario. if horus is on the field and one chooses to activate a spell, since it is negated, yes, you would lose 1 UP. by definition, it is -1UP. definition.

if someone gains a card in hand, and the opponent had the same number of cards the turn before, according
to traditional advantage, it's a +1 already. however, according to UP, nothing has changed until a card is
activated or negated. it's just 0. that's the whole idea. it's not -1 until you try to activate it and fail. it's
a system based upon activation and negation/destruction. strategic stopping is not taken into account
directly.

i.e. suppose i have a spellcaster deck running secret village. the opponent has 5 spell cards in
hand. i activate 1 card, my field spell. then i end. that's +1 UP for me. the opponent draws another
spell on his turn. i only have a +1 UP advantage, but i've essentially won the game.

why do i want to examine this? why legitimize this curiously small number? because it means you can
win a duel with just +1 UP and -1 card advantage. i'm looking for simple, interesting scenarios like
this, that i can clearly and easily measure.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:24 pm
Wolfgang DelaSangre wrote:I've always said Card Advantage was a steaming load due to the complete inability of everyone I've talked to about it to illustrate the exact connection between winning and having more cards when every single one of them has pulled off a victory with fewer cards than their opponent.

But this? This is just....

.......

.......

I like this.

HA! You thought I was gonna say it was shit, didn't you? Yeah, no. This not only makes more sense than Card Advantage, but by its very nature is linked to winning. I'm honestly still a little skeptical due to its similarity to card advantage, but I'll give it a chance.


I win all the time by keeping my card count higher than theirs at all time. The only times I can think it wouldn't effect the duel is a lightsworn who 1/20 gets a JD with 0 cards in hand, 1 in grave...or a LS draws a Krystia when they have valhalla on the field (has happened to me) or have 4 fairies (has happened to me too).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:05 pm
dmcAxle wrote:
Wolfgang DelaSangre wrote:I've always said Card Advantage was a steaming load due to the complete inability of everyone I've talked to about it to illustrate the exact connection between winning and having more cards when every single one of them has pulled off a victory with fewer cards than their opponent.

But this? This is just....

.......

.......

I like this.

HA! You thought I was gonna say it was shit, didn't you? Yeah, no. This not only makes more sense than Card Advantage, but by its very nature is linked to winning. I'm honestly still a little skeptical due to its similarity to card advantage, but I'll give it a chance.


I win all the time by keeping my card count higher than theirs at all time. The only times I can think it wouldn't effect the duel is a lightsworn who 1/20 gets a JD with 0 cards in hand, 1 in grave...or a LS draws a Krystia when they have valhalla on the field (has happened to me) or have 4 fairies (has happened to me too).


You know why I've rejected Card Advantage all these years? Gaping holes like what you just listed.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:06 pm
thesonicvision wrote:
Tristam wrote:I disagree, since you basically just "lost" your draw, or use of a card. It's the same thing as if the card were negated, except it's kinda worse in a sense since your opponent doesn't waste any cards to negate it.


^ dude. i appreciate your enthusiasm, but what you're describing is something different altogether.
that's fine, by the way. your system may achieve a better result. however, the point of my system is to be
simple and clear. what i've just quoted you saying is certainly very principled, but not mathematically
clear.

let's look at your horus scenario. if horus is on the field and one chooses to activate a spell, since it is negated, yes, you would lose 1 UP. by definition, it is -1UP. definition.

if someone gains a card in hand, and the opponent had the same number of cards the turn before, according
to traditional advantage, it's a +1 already. however, according to UP, nothing has changed until a card is
activated or negated. it's just 0. that's the whole idea. it's not -1 until you try to activate it and fail. it's
a system based upon activation and negation/destruction. strategic stopping is not taken into account
directly.

i.e. suppose i have a spellcaster deck running secret village. the opponent has 5 spell cards in
hand. i activate 1 card, my field spell. then i end. that's +1 UP for me. the opponent draws another
spell on his turn. i only have a +1 UP advantage, but i've essentially won the game.

why do i want to examine this? why legitimize this curiously small number? because it means you can
win a duel with just +1 UP and -1 card advantage. i'm looking for simple, interesting scenarios like
this, that i can clearly and easily measure.

O.K. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I'm ranting about some "third" system, besides UP and Advantage. I can see how your system has it's uses, but unless it covers that situation you just listed I'm going to have to leave it alone. After all, someone with +5 UP can be in a losing situation, where as someone who is just +1 UP might be dominating (as you've just shown) The system's end "result" don't seem to clearly define what's going on in game to me. I'd still have to rely completely on my own "normal" skills in the end. It brings up the question as to why I'd want to bother calculating UP when the final numbers won't necessarily help?

Not to bash your work. It's still very interesting,to say the least, but I'm going to tell myself I'll look into again when it gets outta beta stage.
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